A Natural Way to Assess Learning (Stacey Wellman)

Season #1 Episode #10

Stacey Wellman, a speech/language pathologist with Winnetka public schools, describes how the  Froebel method helps her identify and assess a child's learning profile. This natural play-based approach often avoids the need for prescriptions or disruptive interventions which can undermine a child's confidence.

In addition to her 25 years experience in the public schools with children ages 3 to 14, Stacey also works with high school and college students on organizational/integrated thinking and learning strategies. She runs a Roots and Shoots program and travels internationally with students, believing that learning must extend beyond the classroom and into nature.

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Stacey Wellman: We know that children take in so much sensory information. And they have to learn how to store that information, organize that information and retrieve that information if they’re ever going to build upon their learning. But too often we’re looking for pills to solve the problem, rather than really understanding the core context of the learning difficulty.

John Pottenger: Welcome to the Path To Learning podcast, where three ordinary guys explore the world of education.

Jay Irwin: What’s working, what’s broken…

Scott Bultman: … and what we can do to best advocate for children.

John: I’m John Pottenger.

Scott: I’m Scott Bultman.

Jay: And I’m Jay Irwin, and you’re listening to Path to Learning.

John: I know we only have a certain amount of podcast recorded so far, but seriously, this is one that I have been looking forward to for a long time.

Jay: Yeah, it’s pretty amazing, and John you and I have never got to see a Froebel school actually functioning. But Stacy Wellman, our guest today, she is actually using Froebel on a daily basis in a public school system in Winnetka, Illinois.

John: Yeah. And the way she’s using these blocks is so incredible because she, you know, with children who are having trouble, maybe focusing in school or having maybe certain disabilities, whether they’re, you know, with language or pathology or if they’re with, you know, neuro inside their minds, and she’s able to use these Froebel blocks, just wooden blocks to assess children, you know, who may have just a learning disability, but it might be misdiagnosed as something that somebody would have given them medication for. So it’s just incredible what she’s doing.

Jay: Yeah, Scott, how did you originally meet her?

Scott: So it’s been interesting, people around the country that really were working in isolation. Now again, I’m the hub of the wheel. So when people needed Froebel materials, they would reach out to me, and I would ask what was going on, and all of a sudden, out of the blue, it seemed like a lot of Froebel materials were going to Winnetka, Illinois. And so eventually I made contact with Stacey Wellman who it seems is the Pied Piper of Froebel there. She’s a speech pathologist in the Winnetka public school system, I think mainly at the Greeley School, but the Froebel system there is not isolated in one program. I think there are four or five schools that are using it. So we got connected. She came to some of the Froebel conferences, I got to know some of her colleagues and to realize that she and I had had a lot of similar experiences; she had been to the private school in Mississauga and had met Dr. Corbett, and …

John: Well, should we jump in … and she’s chocked full of amazing nuggets of inspiration.

Scott: Yes, Stacey is phenomenonal and she’s been a really big booster for the documentary project and super busy doing all sorts of things, and so we’re really fortunate that she could join us for this interview, so let’s get going.

John: Buckle up.

Scott: So, Stacey, what was it about Froebel that interested you?

Stacey: I got interested in Froebel from a neural developmental standpoint. And when you think of neural development, Froebel got it right, you know, over 100 years ago, in terms of memory, attention, spatial ordering, higher sequential ordering, or temporal sequential ordering, language, neuromotor, social cognition, higher-order cognition, he had it all figured out. And when I look at what he did, in terms of understanding the child, it was phenomenal. And he ran up against a lot of what we’re up against today and the sense that educators were focused on the output, how a child performed on a test, and that’s exactly what we’re encountering today. And he was able to look beyond the output, and focus not on the product of what they’re producing, but on the process. And the process is what’s so important and how we develop higher-order thinkers and creative thinkers and design thinkers for the 21st century. And so, when I look at Froebel and what he was able to create and what he was able to envision, it is exactly what the schools need today. And there’re three components to his philosophy and to his thinking that is critical. And the first is the relationship connection. And he put a lot of emphasis on the child developing a relationship, a relationship with themselves, relationships spiritually, or in nature, relationship with their peers, relationship with their families, relationship with their teacher, and relationship with their communities. And if you don’t allow children to be emotionally centered through that relationship development, you cannot get to higher thinking. And in today’s public schools, social-emotional learning is a core curricular piece. And what we’re finding is that children who are not emotionally grounded, cannot take in their experiences and their sensory inputs and bring it to that higher cognitive thinking. And so that relationship development was huge. The second component that was, you know, ingenious of him was the creation of the Gifts and the Occupations. He was focused on developing a foundation of knowledge and skills, that allows the children to draw upon it over and over again, to develop more creative, higher thinking processes and problem-solving, and Gift play and Occupation work. He was focused on developing those sensory experiences, and we know that children take in so much sensory information. And they have to learn how to store that information, organize that information and retrieve that information if they’re ever going to build upon their learning. And he said we have to start with that sensory experience. And it aligns completely well with what the research is saying today. Because what the research is saying is we need children outdoors, we need them playing, we need them taking risks, we need them digging in the dirt, having all of these experiences that they can build that foundation. The third part that he created was the environment. And as I look at what the 21st-century school should look like, again, he figured it all out. And the 21st-century school involves not sitting at a desk in an isolated classroom day after day. It involves being part of a classroom, being part of a school community, being part of a garden, being part of the outdoors, and being a part of your community. And when you look at certain types of curriculums that are coming out according to the STEAM initiatives and whatnot, it’s about connecting kids to their communities, to their school environments, to nature to develop those higher cognitive skills. In addition to the physical space, he created a space that allowed for risk-taking. And it wasn’t about competition. It was about collaboration. And in order to be a creative design thinker in the 21st century, you can’t do it in isolation. It’s about the integration of knowledge and collaboration amongst a group of people. And he instilled that at the youngest age, that it’s okay to share an idea with another individual, and it’s okay to take part of their idea and incorporate it into yours. It’s not about right or wrong. And it’s about constant reflection and development of ideas and being able to collaborate and problem-solve together. In addition, he — with the sensory input in the environment, he said, yes, there’s visual, and there’s auditory, but there’s also tactile and kinesthetic. And the fact that music and dance and movement was such an integral part of his curriculum, we’re now finding that that’s what we need to bring back into the classroom today. So when I looked at Froebel years ago, and was so intrigued by what he had done, and what I see in today’s literature regarding education of the 21st century thinker and learner, all of what he had created in terms of a foundation was there. And in order to feel confident that we’re moving forward in the right direction, we need to draw upon that and bring in more research and tools to build upon it. But it’s a piece that cannot be forgotten or omitted, and if anything, I feel it’s the starting point of where we have to think about educating kids and the learning process.

John: So how did you first come across Froebel? Did you just kind of stumble upon it, or were you researching something?

Stacey: How I found out about Froebel was as a clinician, I was intrigued by how children learned. And I walked into learning environments where I feel as though kids were engaged. Some kids were engaged, other kids were more passive and withdrawn. And I started looking at activities. And it’s again from that sensory approach and the engagement and also the sense that there are many different kinds of learners. And as I’ve been in education, words like differentiation have come up, and you know, the new brain research talks about neuroplasticity, and how you can reshape the brain, and also about putting the right strategies and learning tools in place for kids. And my questions as I saw different components being played out in classrooms, whether it was Reggio, or progressive ed approach or Waldorf approach or what have you, I kept asking where did it all start? And I was fortunate because I had a leader who encouraged me to find the answer to that question. And it wasn’t about coming back with a program and coming back with a ‘This is what you need to do.’ It was more about a way of thinking, a mindset that had to be adopted and embraced. And once I understood [Froebel’s] mindset, I saw how it all evolved. And I also recognized — in my field as being more of a support personnel or a clinician — I was worried at how we were going about and understanding kids. And what happens is often we put a label on a child. And it’s not about a label, or it’s not about a deficiency that they’re performing in the lower quartile and therefore there’s a problem. While that information is good in the sense that it alerts us to a problem, it doesn’t tell us why. And it’s through Froebel that I have found that I can uncover so much about a child’s learning profile, with just the Gift play and Occupation work. And by working with classroom teachers and going in and doing Froebel Gift play together, we collaboratively talk about students and understand their profile and, more importantly, by doing that, understand strengths and weaknesses and are able to put the right strategies in place.

There was an incident where I received a phone call, and I was asked to come down to a conference regarding a student that wasn’t on my caseload, or whom I was seeing, but I knew the child because I’d gone into the classroom to do Froebel Gift play and Occupation work as the teacher was integrating it into the curricular units. And as I came into the conference, they were talking about how this particular child did not perform well on a math assessment and had performed in the lower quartile. But also the team that was sitting around the table — which consisted of school personnel, the parents, outside professionals that the parents had brought in, as well as the teacher — they were concerned because the child was showing a lot of avoidance behaviors, as well as negative commentary about school and about himself as a learner. And that really caused the red flag to go up, and everybody I could tell was deeply concerned and wanted to find, you know, some special strategies and solutions to help this child. And as I sat there and listened — I had come into the conference a little bit late — and the conversation had moved primarily to the discussion of the avoidance behavior and the negative talk. And within a matter of moments, we were talking about a psychiatric evaluation, an emotional disorder, a behavioral disorder, attention deficit disorder, is it a nonverbal learning disability, and the discussion of medication came up, and pharmaceuticals. And as I sat there, the teacher stopped the conversation and shot me a look and said, “I brought Stacy into this conversation because I would like her to share what we observed just a week ago, and it was a very different child.” And I shared with the group the Gift play activities that had occurred in the classroom and how the child struggled with some of the visual-spatial, but he was socially engaged, he was self-initiating, he was persevering. He was enjoying the learning experience, even though I knew that certain elements of his learning were being challenged. And the team at that time was very curious as to why a child would be so dramatically different in one situation versus another. And so what we decided was — it happened that afternoon I was going into this teacher’s classroom to do formal Gift play — and I said, “Well, I would like to collect some more information, some more examples that we could maybe look at and discuss before we develop any plan or make any decisions about testing.” And what happened was, when we went into the classroom, we were able to do a variety of activities, which was exactly what we needed. And while we had the child do activities that involved more verbal and language, such as a connecting story, and a barrier game kind of activity with forms of life, we also challenged them with forms of knowledge with manipulation of Gift 5 to make perfect squares with a perforation activity, which involved fine motor skills. And it was fascinating to watch the huge difference in abilities that unfolded. And I encouraged the psychologist and school principal to also come in during that time, and they too, saw a different child that throughout this entire experience did not show any of the negative behaviors or the avoidance behaviors, but a profile that was definitely indicative of extreme strength and extreme weakness and my comment to the individuals after that was, imagine the discrepancy in ability, and how frustrating that might be. And what was fascinating is when I was asking this particular child who had very high cognitive skills in mathematics, he said to me, “My hands don’t work very well. Perhaps I could tell you how to make the perfect squares with Gift 5, and you could do it.” And I said, “Absolutely, we can do that.” And what was interesting was, as he was telling me, he was looking away from the Gift. And I was doing what he was telling me, and his language skills were phenomenal, with extreme precision. And when he got done talking, he looked down at the table. He said, “That’s it.” And with the perforation activity, he couldn’t hold the awl that we had given the second-grade class because it was too light. And I said, “Why don’t you take mine?” And he looked up at me as he started using this awl — because they were perforating constellations because they were doing a constellation study — and he looked up at me, and he said, “This is a heavy awl, but boy does it do the job. Look, I’m hitting all the points.” And what I realized was he needed more sensory input in his hand in order to be able to handle that fine motor task. And one of the comments that came up in the conference was that he was withdrawing from the curriculum, he was only reading magazines, and he was flipping through eye witness books. And he, you know, was not initiating reading. And one of the things that the Froebel Gift activities and Occupation work did with him was made him extremely comfortable. And so I was able to ask them at the table I said, you know, your teacher tells me that you only like to look at magazines and you’re not really interested in chapter books. Why is that and he’s like, because I really have to work at it. I go, what do you mean work at it? And he said, Well, you know how pictures in books, underneath there’s writing? And I said, Yes, he’s like, well, I read the writing under the picture so that I can understand the pictures. I don’t look at pictures in the same way other kids do. And I thought to myself here is a very insightful young man, who not only understood his weaknesses, but understood his strengths, and was employing strategies to help them succeed. And when the principal heard that, she was just amazed. So, we came back the next morning — the team couldn’t meet after school, but we came back the next morning — we were able to give all of this information; the psychologist, the principal, the teacher, myself, were able to share this experience as well as the insights from this particular student and within a matter of 30 minutes a list of diagnostic assessments and checklists, and doctor’s appointments got dwindled down to just a few assessments to identify not only the weakness, but also to identify the strength and the discrepancy between and what could have been three months of pulling him out of the class for diagnostic evaluations, and really affecting his self-esteem as a learner completely got transformed. And within a matter of just three weeks, we were able to get the diagnostic information. But more importantly, that day, we were able to put strategies in the classroom that matched his learning profile, and the teacher reported that the avoidance behavior stopped; and the parent, more importantly, reported that the negative talk about school ended. And to me in the modern era of teaching when teachers are expected to look at a classroom of students and be able to understand learning profiles and differentiate instruction, Froebel Gift play and Occupation work really helps give the insight they need to understand what is best for each student and learner.

Jay: Have you seen that with other children and other circumstances?

Stacey: Whenever I go into a classroom with Froebel Gift play and Occupation work, I immediately see it as a diagnostic opportunity and an assessment opportunity. And I would much rather have children playing and engaging and you know, in a social community, and they don’t even know that I’m looking at them in that way. I’m not putting a test protocol in front of them, and whether it’s with the youngest of learners in our district and preschool in kindergarten, I am using it constantly and what’s neat is that in working with teachers and helping them understand Froebel’s mindset, in terms of how we go about educating learners, I am showing them how these activities as being a part of a regular integral part of learning each and every day, not only in curricular units but also in choosing opportunities, they see it as a valuable assessment tool, as well. And it’s also something that we have written up in terms of descriptions for parents; I can tell a parent that okay, your child understands basic concepts, and can put three pictures together to tell a story. But when I can show a parent, a dialogue description of what happened using Gift 3 to create a connecting story with a group of Gift 4 peers, and the social engagement, pride, and eye contact and development of a story. They are more excited about that than just a checklist that says yes, your child knows their basic concepts. And so it’s also been a tool that we repeatedly use with parents to help them understand their children as learners. Because as educators, we are constantly approached by parents, “What else can I do outside of school?” And when we give suggestions, it’s not about doing more math problems, or necessarily doing more reading. It’s about the idea of the integration of skills that Froebel encouraged through the Gift play and Occupation work, and also exploring those skills in a variety of environments.

Scott: So a common misconception about the Froebel materials is that they’re busy-work or manual training for factory workers. What do you find so valuable in using these materials?

Stacey: One of the things you can do is you can take any Froebel activity; Forms of Life, Forms of Knowledge, Forms of Beauty, you can take any piece of Occupation work, and you can truly dissect it according to neurodevelopment and learning standards. And one of the things that I know that I’m trying to do with colleagues is to communicate that and think that through, and we’ve taken activities that may appear busy-work like perforation. It’s also with the perforation activity. The art of discovery of what they’ve created is also so exciting to children. And the fact that we’re getting to tactile, visceral experiences in a technology age, where we’re going through these senses with these activities. They’re more engaged than ever. I use an example of first graders who had a pizza lunch, and they stayed in the cafeteria and wanted to fold their paper plates because they could create tetrahedrons and whatnot. And with that, that was way more exciting than being able to go to the auditorium during a lunch hour because it was a rainy day to watch a movie or, you know, be able to do other activities that were common and familiar to them. So a lot of the Gift play and Occupation work, when you look at it, it really gets to the heart of neural development. And when you sit and look at these activities, they even mirror a lot of what the diagnostic assessments are measuring. And I think of the Woodcock-Johnson and the Wyatt and Black designs and coding where we’re trying to look at these underlying skills. We don’t need to pull out the test protocols. We can just watch the child in the Gift activity, and more importantly, because they’re so fascinated and engaged by the activity, they are intuitively wanting to choose these activities in their classroom and work on an underlying area that might be weaker. And you know, it’s not about having to do your homework because this is hard or practice your handwriting, we can get at excellent skills through a much more natural way.

John: So what’s the biggest challenge of using Froebel?

Stacey: Biggest challenge with Froebel is the open-endedness of it. And the idea is, it’s not a ‘This is where you start, and this is where you finish.’ The goal of an educator is to use the Froebel Gifts and Occupations in a way that inspires the child’s thinking, inspires their passions, encourages their questioning, and allows them to draw out all of what’s inside them, and to be able to take that information and build upon it. And it’s a tool that is not used in one grade, it’s constantly looked at and reexamined year after year. And I think the fact that children have to look deeper into it, it gives them the thinking skills they need in problem-solving in today’s era, that sometimes we have to go back to issues and look deeper to find the answer. And that kind of mindset and thinking that Froebel instills at a very young age makes you a good problem solver in life. And that is, I think, the genius of it. But the idea of the Gifts and the Occupations is really to draw out all of the information that the child has within himself or herself and to build upon it.

Jay: So you’re in a public school environment, what kinds of challenges have you had with that?

Stacey: The public school environment is difficult because of time. And there are mandates that we need to adhere to. And there are ideas that are more extrinsic in nature where you go into a room, and you teach something, versus intrinsic, where you’re encouraging the child to ask the questions and seek their own answers. And you know, you need a balance between the two; you need a teacher to provide some content knowledge, and you need a child to be, you know, confident, to be able to ask a question and to pursue a way of thinking and learning that allows them to come to their own conclusions or draw their own answers. And it’s that delicate balance between the two and sometimes when there’s time, and we have to get through a certain amount of curriculum by the end of the year. So sometimes the Common Core Standards say you have to teach all of this within the school year. And there’s a lot of interruptions to the school year. And when time is the issue, you tend to cut out the intrinsic and focus more on the extrinsic type of teaching. And that, unfortunately, is happening more and more because testing can infringe upon the amount of classroom time a teacher has available to be able to allow these activities to unfold.

Scott: So you’ve done a lot of work with administrators and school boards, how easy has it been to explain Froebel to them?

Stacey: I think one of the best things I’ve learned in trying to educate all stakeholders into what is good education is: you can’t tell a person what you know, you have to allow them to come to it themselves, just like the children. And so whether it’s teachers, whether it’s parents, whether it’s school board members, whether it’s foundation members, whether it’s people in the archdiocese, whatever it may be; what I often do is I have them just come and experience a Froebel activity. And I’ve been known to have them come into the classroom and start doing Gift playing Occupation work. And I’ve done Froebel nights with parents and without using, you know, Froebel’s teaching and philosophy and starting at that point, I asked them, “What did you learn? What did you discover? What did you like about this learning experience?” And through their own self-reflection, they’re able to understand how valuable this way of learning and teaching is. And most adults only know the education they were given. And because they only know the education of their childhood, when you come at it with a different angle, they don’t necessarily understand it. And so rather than telling them what they should understand, I show them, and I let them experience it. And that experience — just like with the children — they never forget. And if anything, leaving a Froebel parent night or an activity in their child’s classroom, they’re more encouraged and excited and supportive of the teaching that’s going on, rather than nervous and fearful. And that’s what’s most important.

Jay: So, Stacey, is there an age range that this works best with?

Stacey: One of the things that I love about Froebel is it’s not just for three- to seven-year-olds, Froebel created a way of thinking and learning that is applicable all the way up through college, and even as adults. And we often think of Froebel in kindergarten as only being applicable to the very young and what I find in public education is that I’m using it more and more with older students. I’m using it with middle school students to be reflective and taking perspectives and being creative in their design thinking, and I’m using it with fourth- and fifth-graders, and in terms of how they are able to think of unity, and some of the social studies curricular points that are being discussed in current events. And so one of the things about Froebel is that it wasn’t meant for only three-year-olds, it was meant to develop a way of thinking that was appropriate for all ages, even as adults. And I see that more and more when I have adults do Gift play activities, and where the conversation goes. I have a group of teachers in which we do Gift play activities ourselves and the depth of our discussion and how much it changes because we have a Gift play experience guiding our discussion is incredible. We’re not necessarily bringing that forth, we sometimes need opportunities, such as through the Gift play, to inspire that kind of communication and collaboration.

John: So Stacey, what would you say people should do with children who are struggling in their learning or their education?

Stacey: As we look at children who are struggling in today’s educational classroom, too often, we are looking towards drugs and pharmaceutical solutions. And a lot has occurred in terms of ADD and nonverbal learning disabilities and executive functioning anxiety. And what happens is that we’re too quick to turn to a medical solution in terms of a drug versus understanding why those behaviors are occurring. And what I have discovered is that a lot of times, if we understand what is at the core of the issue in terms of neural development, the behaviors that warrant these types of medical interventions can be quickly extinguished. And by understanding that a child’s visual-spatial system is causing him or her tremendous frustration, if we can intervene and find the right strategies, then all of a sudden, we have better attention, we have better perseverance, we have better task initiation. I’m not saying that medication is, you know, wrong in all situations. But too often, we’re looking for pills to solve the problem, rather than really understanding the core context of the learning difficulty.

Scott: What do you tell parents and teachers who have discovered Froebel but want to know what’s next?

Stacey: I know that when I talk to parents and teachers and they have an experience, and then they begin asking me about Froebel, it can be overwhelming. And they often want to know, “What is it that I need to do next?” And I often say you need to reflect on what you already have. And you need to understand what was Froebel’s philosophy, in terms of educating children, and to study that and then be reflective on what is it that’s already there, because you’re not starting from the beginning. If you’re interested in Froebel, you’re not starting at the beginning point. You’re starting somewhere, you know, in the process, but you have to understand where that starting point is for you. And I think by understanding what you already have, it eases people’s mind that I’m not trying to recreate something completely new. I already have so much of this. I just need to understand it better. And I also need to be reflective of what is missing that I need to incorporate back into a program that is currently underway.

John: So how do you see this awareness translating to real change?

Stacey: One of the things that documentary does is it doesn’t focus on the kindergartener. It focuses on the thinker and learner and the human being as the end result. And anybody can watch the documentary [Link? – Ed.] and see an entry point for himself or herself, whether or not they have older children, or even if it’s just for themselves, and what they envision, as in terms of what they want in their society, you know, and the type of the next generation that we create as human beings as contributing members in society. So I do see the documentary as pulling together with a common vision and goal. And you know, when we think of communities at — the school is at the heart of all communities. Everybody has an investment in the school because that is the next generation that we’re creating for our community. So I like love the fact that the documentary focused upon the college students as well as the three-year-old students, and if you didn’t have the whole range of ages, you know, displayed, people wouldn’t understand. And the documentary is going to prove that, in the sense that, by showing the range in which people are using Froebel with students of all ages, that’s the richness of it. That’s why it’s such a valuable tool and philosophy that has to be understood so that we can continuously draw upon it and develop it.

Scott: So do you think our documentary series is going to make a difference?

Stacey: I think the documentary is one in which it begins a story, and it begins the questioning, and I think that a lot of what’s in the documentary is kind of like that Froebel experience. You need people asking the question, and you need people reflecting. And the sense that the documentary encourages questions and reflection is exactly what Froebel wanted in his learners. And so it’s also going to allow us to understand what we’ve lost in terms of education at certain points in time, and what we’ve gotten back into education and possibly why that is something we need to hold on to. And really allow us to look at the educational process, not from a bureaucratic way where ‘This is the model you need to follow’, but in a developmental way that is right for children and say, no, these are the pieces that need to be a part of this educational program, because this is what children need to be able to be high-level thinkers and learners.

Scott: So that was great speaking with Stacey Wellman. She’s hopefully going to be presenting at the next Froebel conference in October. It’s always great to talk with her, she’s got some really great experience with the Froebel materials and, you know, working with young children.

John: Well I’m fascinated that Stacey is using these 200-year-old Gifts and methods to do occupational therapy and neurodevelopment, and it’s all backed by actual brain science and data, and research; it’s just incredible to me that the contrast of this 200-year-old methodology being used in an incredibly impactful way today and backed by the data.

Jay: Yeah, and another thing that is unfortunate about the podcast format is that you can’t see these Gifts but even if you could see them, one of the things that she said was, you know that she’s had to show some of the administrators and teachers, like you just got to see it. And you know, I love that she said that she showed these people, and they saw it. Once you see it, you just get it. So if you guys get a chance to check out, you know, some of the videos that we have that go with some of this stuff, it’s just incredible what is taking place. So John, how do people find out about what we’re doing?

John: Thanks for asking, Jay. There’re a couple places they can go; they can go to https://www.gardenofchildren.org to hear about our documentary series, and there are all the links to Facebook and Instagram. And really, we would encourage people to follow us on those social platforms because we actually post a lot of incredible clips and you know, little sound bites from our documentary series that can be inspirational for parents and for teachers. So definitely follow us on those social media sites. But also, if you want to follow us on https://www.pathtolearning.us that’s our podcast website, or support us on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/PathToLearning.

Scott: Alright, thanks for checking us out today, we’ll see you next time.

Jay: Thanks for listening.


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