Play Is Essential (Nancy Carlsson-Paige)
Play is a powerful way to learn ... so why is it disappearing from children's lives? Our guest, Nancy Carlsson-Paige, professor emerita of early childhood education at Lesley University (where she trained teachers for 30+ years), shares her insights. As a vocal advocate for children's right to play (and co-founder of Defending the Early Years (http://dey.org), Nancy is a prolific author of many book/articles on media violence, conflict resolution, and peaceable classrooms/schools. Her most recent book is Taking Back Childhood: A Proven Roadmap for Raising Confident, Creative, Compassionate Kids.
Nancy Carlsson-Paige: Play is a very holistic thing. As soon as you say, "Oh, we learn concepts, we learn social emotional skills. But the truth is the whole child's engaged in play all the time." We just pull it apart to try to understand it, because it's such a complex thing.
John Pottenger: Welcome to the Path to Learning podcast, where three ordinary guys explore the world of education,
Jay Irwin: what's working, what's broken,
Scott Bultman: and what we can do to best advocate for children.
John: I'm John Pottenger.
Jay: I'm Jay Irwin.
Scott: And I'm Scott Bultman. And you're listening to the Path to Learning.
John: So we're taking a trip back in time a little bit here to an interview we captured not too long ago, but Scott, maybe you can tell us a little bit about what we're gonna be talking about today.
Scott: Yeah, we're gonna be speaking with Nancy Carlsson-Paige who is Professor Emerita at Lesley University. She's one of the founders of the DEY (Defending the Early Years) organization along with Diane Levin, who we also have known and interviewed for the documentary series. And Nancy ... she's a pitbull. She's out there making it work. And we're really glad that we had an opportunity to sit down and talk with her.
Scott: Yeah, and they're all about play, which is what we the topic of a conversation that we had with her was on the importance of play, and its role in education.
Jay: Yeah, she's definitely the probably one of the leading advocates for play out there today.
John: Yeah. So without further ado, we can jump in to this interview,
Scott: Nancy Carlsson-Paige.
John: So Nancy, what's so important about play?
Nancy: It's kind of a miraculous thing. children all over the world know how to play, nobody teaches them how to travel anywhere, you're going to see, if you look at young children, you're going to see that they're playing. I think anything that's that universal, like walking, talking, that's programmed into us, as human beings must be really essential for adaptation and human development.
Jay: So how is it the young people learn?
Nancy: So young children learn through action, through firsthand experience, and through manipulating objects interacting with people in a firsthand kind of way. It was amazing in our field of child development in the 90s, because the field of neuroscience started to cross over into our field. And it was exciting, because the brain scientists were seeing how the brain develops in an infant and a young child. And everything they were seeing was dovetailing beautifully with what we had understood in our field about how children develop, and the importance of play. The amazing thing is that the human brain has a little more than a quarter this the weight and volume of the adult brain at birth, and by age three, 80% and by age five, 90%.
Nancy: So what that tells us is that that brain is developing incredibly rapidly in those first five years of life like no other time again. And it's developing as children have experiences and interact in the world. those neurons are connecting and strengthening as children engage in the world. And much of the time, if you watch them in natural experience there they're playing. So it's through play, that the brain is growing and strengthening and developing in the early years.
Scott: So how does learning in play actually happen?
Nancy: You can't really separate play from learning or learning from play in the early years. A lot of the controversy in education has to do with an attempt to do that, and to describe learning as something other than play. But actually, children are learning while they play right from the start.
Nancy: My son, Kyle, when he was five-months-old, would lay in his crib. I had a Calico animal mobile that hung over his crib. And he figured out that if he kicked his chubby little legs, it shook. And so I would hear him in his crib, kicking and making that mobile shake and laughing and laughing. It's a form of play. And also learning because he was actually understanding cause and effect at a level of action. If I kick my feet, it shakes the mobile. So this is going on all the way through childhood. Play is a very holistic thing. So soon as you say, "Oh, we learn concepts, we learn social emotional skills," but the truth is the whole child's engaged in play all the time. We just pull it apart to try to understand it, because it's such a complex thing.
Nancy: I was last weekend on a hiking trip and There were some kids on it. So there was a little girl, asta and a little boy, three-year-old Quinn. And there was a pool table in one of the rooms. And they were spending a lot of time rolling the balls across the table, laughing having fun interacting, but trying to figure out how do you make that ball go in the pocket? With what force? At what angle? And you can't separate out the fun they're having the activity they're doing or the learning that's going on, when they're doing it.
John: Do you think that play extends beyond childhood?
Nancy: I do think that play extends beyond childhood and I experience it in my own life. But it takes different forms. The the way it's unique for children is that they don't think abstractly, like we do, like older children, and adults. So they really do live in the concrete world of the here and now. And very gradually, they're developing symbols which we operate on. And so their play looks really different from ours. And if you ask adults do they play? I think yes, though, we may be experienced it in different ways I paint. And I know that when I'm making art, I'm definitely playing. It has all the elements of play of a younger child. And I'm sure anyone watching this would be able to relate to that of play in their own lives, hopefully. Because we … ideally we wouldn't be losing it. Play is when we do something self-directed, and active. And so, if we think about how does that come up in our lives, hopefully, we're all experiencing it.
John: So it's interesting, in video we do a lot of experimenting where we try something in the edit, you know, we tried different song, or we try to put in a different edit. And we're just doing a lot of, you know, testing and experimenting. And I would consider that play. And I'm just curious what you think about that?
Nancy: It's very interesting that you use the word experimenting. And later on we'll talk about this, or we can talk about it now. Hypothesis testing is sort of a more formal scientific description for what you are experiencing making a film or children experience when they play. They actually try something out. And then they see how it works. And then they modify it. And then they test it out, they try it again. It's really the scientific method that they're doing as they're interacting with materials, you know, trying to build a building or make some block, stay on top of another size block and figure out why it's falling. All those things that we that's part of our amazing human capacity, to invent, to create, to problem solve and think. It's a wonderful, it's a wonderful thing. It's actually what we need to nourish and children and gets, you know, these days with education standards and demands and testing so harsh. It's undermining or dampening those very things that we need to nourish, and that play just brings out naturally in kids.
Jay: So we were at Mission Hill, and we were witnessing a class and we saw a kid building a tower out of blocks. And of course, like it always does, it came crashing down. And he kind of had this big reaction, "What?" ... and then picked up the blocks and started building again. And we were just reflecting on failure and the lessons of failure. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Nancy: I don't think children see it as failing at all. I think they see it as testing hypotheses, seeing if it works. A kid builds a building, it falls over and they go What? And they immediately get get right back to it. This little boy I was hiking with last weekend was three. He fell five times. He just got up and kept going. There's this wonderful perseverance in children that's inherently there. And but you can you can stifle it, actually. We can foster it too. If we encourage kids and help them stick with things. I don't think children experience a sense of failure unless some one made them interpret the experience that way. That's my my best sense of it. Given my life experience as an educator, a mom and a grandmother of eight kids. I've watched up close. I see them all engage in this very energetic and interested way in getting to know the world of things and people. And I don't think they feel something failed unless someone said to them that that failed or that didn't work or put that kind of interpretation on it.
Scott: Okay, so how should the adult react then when something doesn't go the way they expect it to go? And what what's the role I guess of the adult in that situation?
Nancy: Absolutely. I feel passionately about the importance of children being able to go through their own process of playing and learning and investigating and discovering I think the role of the adult is to observe really carefully what they're doing and also to understand development, so that we can give them feedback that supports where they are in the process of learning. Unfortunately ... I mean, really, teacher education is ... should be enormously subsidized and long-lasting, because it takes an awful lot of craft and knowledge to be able to support children's play, deeply and well. But I think, no, the it isn't ... If we impose on them a final answer, let's say "two plus three is five," and it's something after memorizing there's a right way to do it. Without understanding where they are in the process of understanding number, we're going to undermine their sense of self, their sense of confidence, their sense of themselves as a learner.
Nancy: An example came to mind when you were talking about number. One of my grandson's is Guatemalan, and I was in Guatemala with him a couple years ago when he was five. And one morning, we had this great big bowl of gorgeous fruit for breakfast, and there were five of us. And I came out and he had set the table with one plate for each chair, he had put three pieces of watermelon and two pieces of pineapple on each plate. So what did that say to me? It said he's working on one-to-one correspondence, the plate to the chair, he's working on classification, the sizes of the of the watermelon and pineapple. And I know ... many people know ... those are pre-number concepts. Those are things children naturally work on, everywhere around the world without anybody teaching them to, that is going to that will eventually lead them to understand number, which is a very complicated thing to understand. And during the same time period, when I was there, I was walking by the lake, he lives near Lake with Jake, and there were five ducks, and he was getting interested in counting, he was starting to count. And he looked out at ducks. He goes "1,2,3,4,8." And he looked at me and he was so happy. And I thought, wow, that's fantastic. He knows these names refer to quantity. He knows they're in an order, the only thing is missing is knowing exactly which name refers to what quantity of duck. But if I had been the kind of teacher I don't think helps kids with direct teaching and giving them answers, I would have said he was wrong. I would have corrected him. "No, no, this is not eight. Jake, it's five." And what does that do to him to his whole learning process to his whole sense of self? It's a deeply undermining thing. If we give feedback to children, that makes them think they don't have the right answer.
Jay: I know a lot of people are interested in kind of the ROI of play, can you talk about how play helps prepare kids for college and careers?
Nancy: in play, children are really ... they are learning foundational concepts and capacities. Everything that they are going to need for later learning and success in school and life is getting established in the play process in the early years. That is what they're doing. And that's what some cosmic forces have engineered because they're all doing it. And you know, they're learning how to solve problems. They're doing all this naturally. Just think of Jake with what I just explained, of setting out the fruit and everything. He's totally taking initiative. He's defining the problem he wants. He's solving it the way he wants he, and all children are doing this. It's not just him, you see it all the time. So the capacity to define a problem and solve it, the capacity to self regulate, which is very, when we watch children play ... it's amazing to see how much self-control they exert when they're playing when they're interested in a problem, or interested in an imaginative play situation that they're engaged in. They control themselves if they're playing family, and they're the dog, they stay the dog. They're woofing. They're not talking. And it's amazing to see three-year-olds and four-year-olds with this kind of self-control. They're, they're thinking in original ways. They're inventing, they're creating. These are the capacities that we need as human beings, for a thriving society ... for democratic society ... for free-thinking population, and not a programmed one.
Nancy: So it's unfortunate that the education reform movement has so little understood young children and has stamped out play to a great extent from preschools and kindergartens. We know this from observe aid, observing and reading Search. Because the very capacities and concepts and skills kids need to be learning in all areas through play are not getting learned. And instead, they're receiving a lot of direct instruction ... and messages really, that you learn by rote, that's what learning is that you can get right answers. And the person who defines them is the teacher or a computer, but it isn't you. And we always want people to think that, that they're intelligent, they can solve problems, and that they're the ones who decide, like when you make a video, you decide if it's good. And someone else can give you feedback about what you do whatever you're doing a piece of art or a piece of writing. Really, the author knows if it's good. And yes, you know, we collaborate with others, and we want their feedback and children do too. They're amazingly collaborative in their play. But, but we want people to have confidence in their own ability to create.
Scott: Okay, so let's talk about social emotional skills. How do kids learn those through play?
Nancy: Well, children learn social and emotional skills the same way. And concepts the same way they learn everything, which is through interaction, firsthand experience. And often that means through play. When we watch children engaging in play, whether it's play with materials or imaginative play, they are talking all the time, they're interacting, they're deciding together what they're going to build, if it's in blocks, and they're building together. If it's pretend play, they're negotiating their roles. They're cooperating. They're often telling a story together. So they're communicating about what they're doing and collaborating in the story. They're hearing each other's ideas and altering their own. It's, it's extraordinary how much learning on the social and emotional plane is occurring in play. So it's a concern, you know, today, children are playing less, both in school, unfortunately, because of the trend towards standards and testing that's really eroded playtime in school. And then unfortunately, outside of school, kids have so many hours on screens and digital devices, that they're not playing like they used to. It's, it's definitely taking eroding their ability to develop social awareness, emotional awareness on some pretty deep levels and skills in those areas. It's something we need to remedy fast.
Jay: Yeah, we really do. I'm always fascinated by watching my own kids, and how they use play to figure out their emotions kind of bring understanding to their emotions. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Nancy: You know, when we watch children closely, we see that they're actually playing in ways that help them make sense of their experience in an ongoing way. If they have an experience that's confusing to them or troubling to them, what they do is they, they take that, and they sort of make a story out of it. So it's kind of creative and original, but it has elements of their own experience. And they tell a story, and they act it out. There are so many examples. There was a little girl in my kindergarten class who had such a difficult separation from her mom. And she used to go into the dramatic play area and act out that we had a business office and we had a doll corner, and she would act out that she was her mom in the business area. And she would go and say goodbye to her baby in a young her doll in the housekeeping area. And she would do this over and over again. Sometimes she was not kind to the doll. So it's very interesting, she was playing out the experiences she needed to the feeling she had about that separation, it's normal to get angry at your parents who's leaving you when you don't want them to. And she did it over and over every day. And this led to her to a sense of mastery over the experience. In other words, it was helping her cope with the pain of separation from mom, by playing it out in this creative, imaginative way. And this is what we see kids doing all the time in big and small ways there. There's 1000s of examples. When we watch kids we see a basic function of play is to to cope with life experience, and resolve it and feel okay, I can handle that I have some mastery over it. And it's that sense of equilibrium that comes from play that allows a child to have the next new experience. And I worry about the mental health for example of young people we see on the decline today and there are many reasons why but I'm very convinced One reason is the disappearance of play, because I think it is a major factor in the all through the early child. Yours for promoting resilience and a sense of strength and inability to cope. And as we see more and more, not only kids with screen time, but we see parents with a very natural, seductive choice to hand kids a device when they're crying, or when they're in a transition or in a conflict. Those things kids need to actually go through, and work out and develop tools to handle so they can handle the next things. But these days, for caregivers, it's very easy to distract them. And when you're distract them, you're basically bypassing the very experiences and skills they need to develop in order to build within the ability to manage life. And then when if kids haven't, I think they get into adolescence, and they feel unable to cope, which is what we're seeing with a lot of young people today.
John: I'd like to talk a little bit about conflict, it's, it's something that, you know, never goes away, it's always something that we deal with as adults. So how important is conflict in the play and learning process,
Nancy: it's very difficult for teachers and parents to accept that conflict is actually healthy and normal. And a lot of us try to fix it. It's a very, it's, it's a really wise teacher who can see a conflict and observe it and let it play out. And it's not the teachers don't do anything. And in some cases, because I've worked a lot with conflict resolution, teachers might take a conflict that they observed in the class, and then with puppets, or something, retell the story, and have kids give their ideas about how to solve it, there are ways to develop conflict resolution skills with young children. But step number one, first of all, we have to have enough play and enough latitude in the classroom where conflicts happen in the first place. When in really tight classrooms, they don't even happen, then when they do happen. Most typically, you see a teacher run over and try to separate kids, or blame them for fighting or fix it. It's one of those. But if you have if you've seen a teacher who can relax with it, and understand that children are actually gaining the very experiences they need, by having that conflict, and if they can't resolve it, and they start punching, the teacher is going to step in and help them. But if the teacher no knows where to intervene, and when it's necessary, but there's a whole landscape there for teachers to allow that in these days isn't really happening.
Scott: Well, it seems that children really aren't playing the way that they used to play, at least when I was little. So kind of what's changed over the years. Why? How did we end up in this situation?
Nancy: Actually, since the mid 1980s, there was a period of deregulation of the television industry and other industries too. But it began to be permitted for the first time to market toys and products along with media. So you have to have remembered that if you're as old as I am, or who wouldn't remember, but children used to play with things that weren't connected to media. And then we started to see movies and TV shows and all these things linked to specific toys. So and then since then, we've seen you know, mass marketing in our commercial culture, of media and toys marketed together, and then also screens and digital devices that remove children even more, from firsthand experience. The important thing to remember is that for children to be able to play in a meaningful way, in a way that they need to a beneficial way that meets their deep, diverse developmental and psychic needs. They have to have play things that allow them to bring their own needs, experience and interests to the material. So that means really open ended materials like clay and generic dolls and generic toys and blocks, and building toys and art materials. So that the inner child comes out and can find its way to a healthy play process and some sense of closure and mastery through play. But to the extent that we influence that need with defined toys, media based toys, or screens, we're actually undermining the quality of play.
Scott: Well, obviously, I think there's a lot I believe a lot that children can learn from play. And that was really Froebel's idea 200 years ago, that play was the basis for education and, and that's how all early childhood was done for a long time. So it It's just it's hard to understand why it all went away. And I think that's why we're doing the series. But is it changed? I mean, have you seen it change?
Nancy: One of our tragedies today and big worries for me, is the incredible change in teacher preparation. It wasn't ever perfect, but we're in a really low time. Because there are a lot of alternative ways to become a teacher, that don't prepare people at all adequately to understand child development, and somebody can come out of a teacher education program and, and have had no preparation and child development. I have had sad experiences of visiting teacher directed programs and asking, Where did you study? Or did you study child development and be told no, no, no, by many people who were doing this kind of direct teaching test based curriculum. You know, if you look at a country, like Finland, all teachers all have a master's degree in early childhood, teachers all have a master's degree. Truly, one does have to understand child development and the developmental progressions of how kids come into reading into writing, math and science. Without understanding those the expectations are going to be out of line with with the learning that's happening, the playful learning that's going on all the time. And if, of course, parents might not trust the teacher, because it could be a situation where a teacher is saying she's got it wrong, she doesn't know how to count to 100, which is one of the common core standards for kindergarten. By 10s. By the way, I mean, they're so wacky and off base from how children are constructing an understanding of number that it's not to be believed, but they were written by people who weren't early childhood educators, sadly, so these standards don't reflect the knowledge in the field, but really imposed from from viewpoints outside the field.
Jay: I think a lot of people are confused about play, I don't think they see its connection with some of the more academic parts of education. I think they think their kids either playing or they're learning. Can you draw out some like a specific example, let's take like literacy. For example, can you talk about how play informs or helps with literacy?
Nancy: First of all, you have to talk you have to be able to talk in full sentences with vocabulary and meaning and grammar, before you can encounter writing or print. And honestly, I don't think that's fully appreciated in educational law. And and people, especially these days, pushing kids so far and fast, to get literate with reading and writing and undervaluing the importance of oral language. And one of the biggest ways to develop oral language is through play. Because when we watch kids in play, both building with materials, but especially in dramatic play, or imaginative play, they're constantly talking, just kind of like, I'll be this you'll be that I'll play this. No, you play that. Which role do you want? What do you want to be? Let's, what's going to happen next? How are we going to protect ourselves from the thunderstorm coming, you know, hide over here, it's constant talking. And kids are also learning from each other. So yeah, there are social skills involved, but they're there, there's communication getting developed, they're hearing how someone else has an idea how someone else expresses something. And it's a big influence because their language is developing. There was a preschool in the city of Boston where I know some teachers and the, the kids four year old, very diverse setting, told the teachers they wanted to have in the dramatic play, princesses and princes, actually, they just said princesses but the teachers injected the princes. And the teachers also said like no Disney, we're going to if you want to do princesses, we're going to really learn about princes and princesses around the world. And they did this literature search and found all kinds of children's books on real princesses, and the history of princes and princesses and stories about them. And they got a whole bibliography. And they read them every morning. So the kids would go into dramatic play. Actually, the parents contributed costumes and stuff, to play out their imaginative stories that they made up. But it was interesting because the teachers noticed there was a lot of vocabulary in the books and the kids started bringing it into play, where it's like moat, drawbridge shield, you know, night vocabulary that they were playing with and making meaning of in their play, but that that really made me think a lot about Wow. Because those teachers I thought were great. And they didn't just let the kids go do imaginative play in the dramatic play area and didn't even look over there. They found ways to really enhance it with, you know, with stories with books and with vocabulary, enhanced vocabulary. And the kids were incorporating the vocabulary in really meaningful ways. That's another thing, if you're going to use words with kids, you have to help them make meaning what do these words mean? And how do we learn what words mean. And one great way is when we play when children play, they're using vocabulary in a meaningful way and sort of deepening their understanding of words, as they're talking and playing. And the other thing is that words, and letters and sounds, they're all symbols. It's a really, it's a deep idea. But you know, we adults take for granted that we're operating on symbols. And let's say something happens to upsetting in your day, you had an argument with someone at work, or you saw something upsetting, how do you deal with it, you might talk to somebody about it, you might think it through, you might, if it's a conflict, you might run it over in your mind what you're going to say. But all of these things that we use are tools of abstract thinkers, young children don't have those tools, they have play, the way that they process everything, with the same need we have to process is they do it through play. And a lot of times they're doing it through pretend play.
Nancy: So when children pretend it's symbolic play, so sometimes we call it symbolic play. So children start symbolizing, or using symbols, when they're really little. Like I was mentioning, my son, Kyle, who I thought was playing by kicking his crib and seeing a mobile rock. But when kids get to be more, to a year of age, or a little older, we noticed this gorgeous breakthrough, when we see them pretend that something is something else. So they might take a block and go home. And it's a big moment, because they're pretending that block is a train or a car or something. And that starts a long process of many years for young children of using objects to symbolize something. And to use art, you know, first kids scribble, and then when they get a little older, they still might scribble but they'd say to you This is my house still looks like a scribble. But it's a huge breakthrough as well happens around three, because they're saying that thing they made is something else. So the thing they made stands for something else, it's a representation of something. This is an awesome thing about the human mind. Because this is what we do as human beings. And this is the project kids are working on from the time they're born, is to figure out how to use symbols in a way to communicate. And it goes from like concrete play very direct plays, zooming the car, to eventually being able to write the word car or recognize it in writing. But that's a long haul. And using those symbols, which are conventional symbols, letters, and numbers, those are conventional symbols that we all agree on. If you and I look at the same word, we know what it is. But there's a long process in there of getting to the point where they can understand and use conventional symbols. And they have to go for a long, they have to have this long experiential ride, of making their own unique symbols that are specific to them. And they do it in play. So they might make a farm, or make a cow or a car, or put on a fiber and say if it's a boy or a girl, or whatever creative thing they're doing. They're using open ended materials to represent something in their own experience or their own imagination. And then little by little by little after this long period of imagining and pretending using symbols. kids do begin to recognize that there are symbols out there in the world. And that's interesting. Like maybe it's a stop sign. And they're pointing to it and some adult says that says stop, you know or they might even say it starts with this and very gradually And naturally, they begin to incorporate an interest and an understanding of these more conventional symbols that process can keep going kind of uninterrupted. If we can support it if we keep the play going. And we help kids start to play with the symbols, like if you watch children who have a good education setting, they'll start to make letters, oh, I have these wonderful photos from my grandson, Jake, who's bilingual, and he was making all kinds of symbols in our driveway, left to right when he was four or five, O's. And some look like letters, I have photos where some look like a P, some look like an A, but some look like a number. And some are just circles or crosses. You'll see a lot of experimenting with symbols. And again, some look like conventional symbols and summer are playful, invented symbols. In an unfortunate certain kinds of classroom, someone's going to correct a child and tell them how to make the right symbol. But again, this is a process it's developmental process. And if teachers have the kind of background where they understand what this process looks like, they honor it, and they understand where a child is in the process. And they can be mindful about how to expose the child to more conventional print that's going to move them along in the process, but not make them feel like it's not in their control.
John: Play is one of those cornerstones of Froebel's original method. And to be able to focus some time today on it, I think is really key. I think a lot of people today know about how important play is and but those who aren't able to figure out how to do it more. I think that's where we're hoping we can kind of step in and give them some ideas with some of these original ideas Froebel had. Scott, what would you add to that?
Scott: Well, just you know, Nancy was one of the top teacher trainers at one of the top teacher prep schools. Yeah, you know, in the Boston area ... in the nation. And she spent her whole career promoting the value of play only to find at the end of her career that it had gotten less and less. And so now, she's redoubling our efforts with Defending the Early Years, which is dey.org ... partnered with a group of other passionate educators who understand the value and want to see it back where it belongs. So I'm really glad that she was able to sit down with us and to share her experience and expertise.
Jay: Yeah, it was a part of Froebel's original plan. And then it's funny how now all the experts that we're talking to always come back to the same point of play. How did we forget this?
John: we are still doing it today, even as adults?
Scott: Yeah. Well, and just because of the timing, we did this interview a year or two ago. We didn't see the pandemic coming in. Because this podcast is coming out. during a time when there's a lot of stress in the household ... to try to get this schoolwork done to you know, be online and do this kind of thing. I think I would just encourage parents to let their kids play. Give them things that they can play with that are going to help them.
Jay: Let them play.
John: Come play.
Scott: Let the children play.
Jay: Well, all this talk makes me want to go play.
John: Yeah, let's do it. Let's play on our Patreon page and get some more people there. There you go, which is patreon.com/pathtolearning ... small plug.
Jay: That's embarrassing,
Jay: Alright, hope you enjoyed it. Thanks, everybody.
John: Thanks, everybody.
Scott: Yep. Thank you.